[Chalkymon]

Howdo guys. Quick trawl of opinions please? In my car wksp business I'm a strong advocate of motor flushes prior to engine oil changes. It's a very broad subject so I won't dwell on the detail, however, is it known, recognised, encouraged or in fact discouraged to add good quality flush before changing the engine oil & filter (in this case 2001 trx450FE2.ES) Or is there a possible risk of contamination/damage affecting the clutch assemblies? All comments welcome. Thanks in advance.
Chalkster

 

[shadetree]

ummmm..did you sink the atv ?. if so ?, well..i stand 100% behind splitting the motor, and washing it all out, this has proven to be 100% safe on a motor rebuild that I do. others might say no, don't do what I do ?, but thats ok, i've been down this road many times in my 25 plus years of rebuilding atv motors when they have been sunk. YOU CAN NOT, WILL NOT..EVER..get that motor 100% clean of all stuff that is lurking in it !!. let them say what they want ?, but I will stick with what I know, and I know, if a motor has been sunk ?, the sure fire way to get it right ?..is split it, wash it all out, inspect it for any damage, put it back together. time after time I have seen members sinking atvs, just try a top end rebuild, then a few days later, back on here, asking us why its still smoking ?. well..there you have it !.

 

[Chalkymon]

ummmm..did you sink the atv ?. if so ?, well..i stand 100% behind splitting the motor, and washing it all out, this has proven to be 100% safe on a motor rebuild that I do. others might say no, don't do what I do ?, but thats ok, i've been down this road many times in my 25 plus years of rebuilding atv motors when they have been sunk. YOU CAN NOT, WILL NOT..EVER..get that motor 100% clean of all stuff that is lurking in it !!. let them say what they want ?, but I will stick with what I know, and I know, if a motor has been sunk ?, the sure fire way to get it right ?..is split it, wash it all out, inspect it for any damage, put it back together. time after time I have seen members sinking atvs, just try a top end rebuild, then a few days later, back on here, asking us why its still smoking ?. well..there you have it !.

Howdo mate, thanks for your quick reply. No, the question was a general one, I was simply enquiring if a flush before an oil change is counterproductive if there's a risk of clutch contamination? The motor itself is healthy, no smoke & very quiet. This is a matter of researching opinions prior to doing any future oil changes.
Chalkster

 

[SamUK]

Hey Chalkymon, I’ve never used the flush additives that you mention but I always flush the crankcase out with some red diesel. Just pour it in the filler and let it run straight back out again. Every bike I get I replace the oil and filter several times before following the maintenance schedule which I believe recommends oil and filter every 100hrs.

Example would be, 20, 40, 60, 80, and at 100 call it good for every 100hrs. I can’t prove that this method works but my theory is any debris within the engine and oil should be pretty much filtered out with that many oil changes. Folk seem to treat ATV’s the same as cars and replace oil & filters once a year or when issues start.

 

[Chalkymon]

Hey Chalkymon, I’ve never used the flush additives that you mention but I always flush the crankcase out with some red diesel. Just pour it in the filler and let it run straight back out again. Every bike I get I replace the oil and filter several times before following the maintenance schedule which I believe recommends oil and filter every 100hrs.

Example would be, 20, 40, 60, 80, and at 100 call it good for every 100hrs. I can’t prove that this method works but my theory is any debris within the engine and oil should be pretty much filtered out with that many oil changes. Folk seem to treat ATV’s the same as cars and replace oil & filters once a year or when issues start.

Howdo mate. Many thanks for your input & thanks once again with regards the fuse box matter!
Regular oil changes in any engine is an issue close to my heart. If it's fresh, clean & plentiful, mechanical issues can for the most part be avoided. Cylinder wear particularly in older engines (especially single cylinders) can inevitably lead to oil burning/smoking issues. Good quality modern engine flushing products (I use FORTE) can provide significant benefits esp with cleaning/freeing components such as piston rings, which not only improves oil control/consumption rates, but compression gains also.
My only concern in the matter which goes back to the thorny issue of wet clutches is whether or not the clutch plates are in any way negatively affected by the introduction of such products? What I'll endeavour to do is approach the Forte Technical Helpline! They may be able to provide a conclusive answer about the use of their products in certain engine/transmission configurations & if they can or should not be used. I'll ring them & update you on their reply.
Cheers
Chalkster

 

[SamUK]

I look forward to hearing the reply, if I knew it was safe to use for wet clutch applications I’d probably use it too. I’ve used it several times on old engines and had good results over time, I’m a believer that it does help and does get rid of gummy deposits within an engine. Some folks are dead against these products and believe they don’t work, their missing out!

 

[mrbb]

I think flushing a GODO known motor is a waste of time and effort and costs

NOW when ever I do an oil change on anything, before refilling, I do LEAVE drain plug off and pour some oil in and make sure it runs out, to help maybe wash out anything that settled near drain hole from old oil, then let that drip out till it stops, and then re install plug and fill new oil/filter and away I go till next time
that is a small way maybe a flush, but I only use a small amount of oil I waste here doing this??

 

[shadetree]

ok, just reg flushing ?, nope, never done it. mrb makes valid points, waste of time, money, effort. I just drain the oil, replace the oil filter, re-fill, call it done !.

 

[retro]

I never flush a crankcase for any reason. If it needs fixed I take it apart and fix it.

When I was a teenager I watched an old man flush his Pontiac V8 motor out with Rislone, then he added a new filter and his usual motor oil and started the motor. Within 15 seconds his motor was clattering. I looked inside his car and saw that there was no oil pressure, so I pointed and hollared and shut his motor off. His oil pump had lost its prime due to him flushing it with a thin solvent/additive. When he refilled with normal motor oil the pump gears cavitated and would not begin to draw any oil.

He had to go to town and buy several more quarts of oil and overfill the sump until the oil level in the sump reached the pump gears to wet them. Oil pressure was immediate then... but he had to drain the oil pan and refill it, wasting all of that extra oil that he had just bought to prime the pump.

I use a Valvoline VR-1 Racing oil change to loosen & flush paraffin sludge into the oil filter on old neglected motors. Simply change the filter every 20 minutes, top it off with oil and keep driving until the motor is clean. A great motor oil detergent package beats a flush every time!

 

[SamUK]

I never flush a crankcase for any reason. If it needs fixed I take it apart and fix it.

When I was a teenager I watched an old man flush his Pontiac V8 motor out with Rislone, then he added a new filter and his usual motor oil and started the motor. Within 15 seconds his motor was clattering. I looked inside his car and saw that there was no oil pressure, so I pointed and hollared and shut his motor off. His oil pump had lost its prime due to him flushing it with a thin solvent/additive. When he refilled with normal motor oil the pump gears cavitated and would not begin to draw any oil.

He had to go to town and buy several more quarts of oil and overfill the sump until the oil level in the sump reached the pump gears to wet them. Oil pressure was immediate then... but he had to drain the oil pan and refill it, wasting all of that extra oil that he had just bought to prime the pump.

I use a Valvoline VR-1 Racing oil change to loosen & flush paraffin sludge into the oil filter on old neglected motors. Simply change the filter every 20 minutes, top it off with oil and keep driving until the motor is clean. A great motor oil detergent package beats a flush every time!

What you’ve mentioned above with the oil pump failure is a common issue with Rover V8 engines. If you replace an oil pump the trick is to pack it with vaseline (petroleum jelly) otherwise pressure isn’t built up quick enough and failure sets in pretty quickly! I’ve never heard of that happening after using flush additives though but will certainly take that on board as I’ve just bought another V8 Land Rover!

My reasons for flushing the crankcase with a thinner liquid, in my case diesel, are just to flush out any debris that may be in there. I’ve found that even with regular oil and filter changes you still get the odd bit of crud in the crankcase. I found this with the 300 though which of course was a mud bike.

 

[retro]

I imagine that your flushes washed some junk out too, being that it was buried in mud and water often? That would be scary to cope with... I'd freak out and be splitting cases every other month.

 

[SamUK]

I imagine that your flushes washed some junk out too, being that it was buried in mud and water often? That would be scary to cope with... I'd freak out and be splitting cases every other month.

Haha, it had fresh oil and filter after every time it was submerged, last thing I wanted was complete engine failure.

 

[LedFTed]

I think flushing a GODO known motor is a waste of time and effort and costs

NOW when ever I do an oil change on anything, before refilling, I do LEAVE drain plug off and pour some oil in and make sure it runs out, to help maybe wash out anything that settled near drain hole from old oil, then let that drip out till it stops, and then re install plug and fill new oil/filter and away I go till next time
that is a small way maybe a flush, but I only use a small amount of oil I waste here doing this??

i had a lengthy post, an probably lost it. just letting the oil drain out, slow is most enough. new filter, change oil when dirty, v/s hours, even better. maybe if you wait till your oil is blackish, then run it with new oil, an new filter, for a couple weeks, then change oil an filter again.
if the oil change, has to do with wet clutches. i think i might be leary of using solvents. even using diesel fuel, to flush engines, can have consequence.
i have used diesel fuel to free up a locked engine.

 

[fishfiles]

To flush or not to flush , that is the question ! ---- I seen a movie once , where they said if it is yellow let it mellow , if it is brown flush it down .

 

[LedFTed]

To flush or not to flush , that is the question ! ---- I seen a movie once , where they said if it is yellow let it mellow , if it is brown flush it down .

Yuck fish. this time i remembered the Y, when i replied. your worst than i am. still aint seen yellow engine oil. LOLS+
sometimes, fresh oil does have a tendency, to look yellow.
when it gets blackish, to much iron in the system. maybe carbon.
when oil gets to look brownish/blackish, tis time to replace.

 

[fishfiles]

the new Caterpillar hydraulic fluid is bright fluorescent yellow , so yellow that I wondered if the black light will make it illuminate like a/c leak dye ------

 

[Goober]

Hey Chalkster
Good question. No I don’t use an engine flush. I can see why it might be tempting to flush an older engine that might have sludge buildup. I would just increase the oil change interval.

The service manual doesn’t recommend flushing that I know of.

For peace of mind you could try to borescope the places where sludge might accumulate, but you risk dropping stuff in those passages.

 

[fishfiles]

my half bubble off neighbor used engine flush from Wally World in his engine after sinking it and ingesting water , I think it ws for sludge and not a water problem , but any way , maybe it was the water , maybe the flush , but next weekend it smoked , he is suppose to get it back this morning or Monday from a rebuild , I'll ask him what he thinks of engine flush when I see him today , LOL ----about the only thing I would flush mine with is oil or diesel and the diesel only if it were sunk

 

[Chalkymon]

Hey Chalkster
Good question. No I don’t use an engine flush. I can see why it might be tempting to flush an older engine that might have sludge buildup. I would just increase the oil change interval.

The service manual doesn’t recommend flushing that I know of.

For peace of mind you could try to borescope the places where sludge might accumulate, but you risk dropping stuff in those passages.

Hey Goober. Hope you're well? It's interesting getting everyone's opinions on this. As previously said all comments are certainly appreciated. My background is this, motor trade since 87 & self employed running my own wksp here in the UK since 95. Its fair to say that huge advances in the industry as well as the oils & additives we use have changed almost beyond recognition. I'm a big advocate of engine flush, specifically the trade only company 'Forte' as their range of products are superb. Flushing modern engines is becoming more & more common practice these days (in the UK) the benefits are significant, however, not all engines react well to the process! It depends largely on how they've been maintained in the past? If an engine block/head is filthy & flush is added there's a big risk of a load of muck, sludge, gums & varnish sliding into the sump following the oil change & eventually blocking up the oil pump strainer! So experience & understanding is definitely needed to avoid unwelcome problems. Back to the issue of the trx450es I've been working on/refurbishing. All appears mechanically sound in the motor & from what I can see there was no heavy contamination in the recent oil/filter I drained/changed from it.
I'm now awaiting official confirmation from the tech help desk (Forte lubricants) but early suggestion is that engines such as motorcycles & atv's operating wet clutch systems don't tolerate being flushed! What improves certain components (pistons/rings) negatively impacts other components (clutch) I'll let you know the official reply. Cheers.
Chalkster

 

[fishfiles]

one thing to think of when you are dealing with your atv , not only is it an engine , it is a transmission with clutch discs , what effect will flush have on them