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after having problems with my 400 at, i've been doing a lot of searching, reading, studying, and gathering of anything i've been able to find concerning these transmissions and how they work and what they're made of. i've added a link to the original patent info and details for atv's which have A LOT of great info on exactly how they work along with diagrams. also, i've attached some pics i found of a hondamatic unit that has been disassembled showing the various parts. hope this helps someone cause it certainly did me!

Rotationally balanced hydraulic swash plate plunger unit, and hydraulic continuously variable transmission incorporating same - Patent # 6996981 - PatentGenius
 

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sorry, forgot to explain each pic. first from left, fixed swash plate. 2nd, adjustable swash plate. 3rd, adjustable swash plate showing the rectangle slot where angle sensor attaches via joint shaft. 4th, swash plate worm gear drive and ball nut. 5th, cutaway view showing inside parts with another good view of what is controlling the angle sensor (small rectangle slot in middle of pic).

in the link, u can scroll down to "Detailed Explanation" which tells, in very technical terms but still informative, exactly how everything works. i have a saved pdf file of the info in the link which was too big to attach. if anyone would like it just let me know. VERY informative if u don't mind a lot of reading.
 

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sorry, forgot to explain each pic. first from left, fixed swash plate. 2nd, adjustable swash plate. 3rd, adjustable swash plate showing the rectangle slot where angle sensor attaches via joint shaft. 4th, swash plate worm gear drive and ball nut. 5th, cutaway view showing inside parts with another good view of what is controlling the angle sensor (small rectangle slot in middle of pic).

in the link, u can scroll down to "Detailed Explanation" which tells, in very technical terms but still informative, exactly how everything works. i have a saved pdf file of the info in the link which was too big to attach. if anyone would like it just let me know. VERY informative if u don't mind a lot of reading.
Nice,did you locate the source of your particular problem,and how to fix it??? I wish Honda sold rebuild kits,or parts for the Hondamatics...
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
sorry, forgot to explain each pic. first from left, fixed swash plate. 2nd, adjustable swash plate. 3rd, adjustable swash plate showing the rectangle slot where angle sensor attaches via joint shaft. 4th, swash plate worm gear drive and ball nut. 5th, cutaway view showing inside parts with another good view of what is controlling the angle sensor (small rectangle slot in middle of pic).

in the link, u can scroll down to "Detailed Explanation" which tells, in very technical terms but still informative, exactly how everything works. i have a saved pdf file of the info in the link which was too big to attach. if anyone would like it just let me know. VERY informative if u don't mind a lot of reading.
Nice,did you locate the source of your particular problem,and how to fix it??? I wish Honda sold rebuild kits,or parts for the Hondamatics...
not yet. got it tore down and the motor ready to pull. probably pull it tomorrow. hopefully know something by the end of the week and i'll post what i find along with pics. i found a hondamatic unit that has a bad pump that i can get parts from as long as it's not the pump i need, which i don't think it is. hoping, as melsman thinks, that it's just a striped reduction gear though. on the bright side, this is a good time to rebuid the top end which it really needs!!

EDIT: got motor out. bout to at least pull front cover before bed. it's killing me not knowing....
 

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Those are great pics!

The piston cups (in pics 2 and 3) are a major point of wear and the main reason to keep your oil clean and fresh, with a little extra ZDDP added in for good measure.

Melsman
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Those are great pics!

The piston cups (in pics 2 and 3) are a major point of wear and the main reason to keep your oil clean and fresh, with a little extra ZDDP added in for good measure.

Melsman
i keep seeing people talking bout ZDDP. what is that?? as i've mentioned, i've owned numerous manual shifts but this is the first auto i've ever had and it's all new to me. u been VERY helpful though!! thanks!!
 

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zinc, its what gives oil the clingyness. its what sticks to the internals when you have dry starts.
 

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Zinc<<<makes layers on the bearings surfaces which provides a layer of wear protection to protect the smooth surfaces of the bearings during start up,and for short periods of time during low oil moments..
 

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Discussion Starter #9
cool. where can i find some of that at? average parts store or an atv dealer?
 

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It is an additive in the oil,some brands,and weights have more than others,(cheapo oils usually have the least,or none at all)...Get you some Rotella T6 oil, it has it in it,and won't harm your clutches...
 

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Thanks guys. This site has helped me so much I felt it was only right to give back and try to help others.
 

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Thanks guys. This site has helped me so much I felt it was only right to give back and try to help others.
That is why this site works so well whereas the rest are all drama,bullying,bickering over who has the biggest ego,and who can run their fingers the most..We all seem to care about the atvs,riding,and getting along with others while helping one another out instead of being smarta55e5 all the time,or giving non info like a kid begging for attention would...If we all keep helping one another out,and trying to help the newbies out then this place will be around for a very long time,and many people will learn to wrench on their own stuff instead of forking out ridiculous bucks to have some halfa55ed mechanic do a halfa55ed job which will have to be redone in a week,or a month...Keep up the good work Joey...:icon_ devil:
 

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Thanks guys. This site has helped me so much I felt it was only right to give back and try to help others.
That is why this site works so well whereas the rest are all drama,bullying,bickering over who has the biggest ego,and who can run their fingers the most..We all seem to care about the atvs,riding,and getting along with others while helping one another out instead of being smarta55e5 all the time,or giving non info like a kid begging for attention would...If we all keep helping one another out,and trying to help the newbies out then this place will be around for a very long time,and many people will learn to wrench on their own stuff instead of forking out ridiculous bucks to have some halfa55ed mechanic do a halfa55ed job which will have to be redone in a week,or a month...Keep up the good work Joey...:icon_ devil:
100% agreed!! i joined several different forums to begin with but this one is the only one that generally has an atmosphere of helping one another and offering factual advise, most of the time, without personal opinions unless they are from personal experiences about the topic at hand. i love this site and intend to do all i can to help it progress and provide helpful info to everyone.
 

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Regarding the ZDDP question...

ZDDP is short for zinc dialkyldithiophosphates, which as DITB mentioned, help "cushion " the metal to metal contact inside engines - normally in bearings and races - but a major consideration in the Hondamatic's piston and cup's contact area. There's a lot of friction in this contact area, especially at low speed and heavy loads. You want all of the "cushion" you can get, and why you don't want thin or worn out and dirty oil.

As was mentioned, most diesel oils have high levels of ZDDP, but automotive oils have very little, because it plays havoc with the emissions system on modern gasoline automobiles.

In general, oils labeled for motorcycles have similar levels of ZDDP as diesel oils, but slightly lower levels of detergent.

One other thing to consider is the film stability, especially during cold starts. Synthetics are excellent in this area. I add Lucas Synthetic oil stabilizer to my non-syn 10W-40 4-stroke motorcycle oil to increase the film stability.

Melsman
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Regarding the ZDDP question...

ZDDP is short for zinc dialkyldithiophosphates, which as DITB mentioned, help "cushion " the metal to metal contact inside engines - normally in bearings and races - but a major consideration in the Hondamatic's piston and cup's contact area. There's a lot of friction in this contact area, especially at low speed and heavy loads. You want all of the "cushion" you can get, and why you don't want thin or worn out and dirty oil.

As was mentioned, most diesel oils have high levels of ZDDP, but automotive oils have very little, because it plays havoc with the emissions system on modern gasoline automobiles.

In general, oils labeled for motorcycles have similar levels of ZDDP as diesel oils, but slightly lower levels of detergent.

One other thing to consider is the film stability, especially during cold starts. Synthetics are excellent in this area. I add Lucas Synthetic oil stabilizer to my non-syn 10W-40 4-stroke motorcycle oil to increase the film stability.

Melsman
awesome info. what ratio do u mix your oil and stabilizer on a typical oil change? also, would u suggest adding ZDDP to this as well? if so, where can i find it?? after dodging the bullet with my transmission scare, i want all the protection i can get!! thanks.
 

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I have to give another shoutout to joey for this awesome writeup; I find this kind of deep technical stuff to be as fascinating as heck.
 
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