[horshackk04]

I just aquired a 2005 rancher 350 4x4 with 3500k on it runs great except for the smoke show, ive done a compression test with the engine at operating temp, choke in open position and throttle wide open, after about 3 cranks compression reaches 150 psi, according to the honda repair manual, standard good comp is around 90 to 100 psi, I have no idea if its standard bore piston or if its been oversized, should i just change valve seals or go all the way and do rings, the cheaper the better any ideas would be appreciated.

 

[Exaviator]

It is possible to change the valve seals without removing the head(using compressed air to keep the valves seated) That would be the least expensive approach and it MAY cure the smoking. OTOH, it is possible to have decent compression and still have a worn or damaged oil ring. try the seals first, it may be the solution. Was your compression ck a wet one?????

 

[shadetree]

It is possible to change the valve seals without removing the head(using compressed air to keep the valves seated) That would be the least expensive approach and it MAY cure the smoking. OTOH, it is possible to have decent compression and still have a worn or damaged oil ring. try the seals first, it may be the solution. Was your compression ck a wet one?????

you can't replace the valve guide seals with compressed air..this is no where enough force to keep the valves in place..not only that..but you have to remove the valve springs in order to remove the valve guide seals. only way to replace the valve guide seals is to remove the head..remove the valve springs and valves..then pull the seals off each valve guide steem off the top of the valve guides..if he's going to go through all this trouble..he may as well replace the ring's..it's not that much more work or time..do it right the first time now..instead of doing it all over.

 

[Exaviator]

It is a procedure done on motorcycles with overhead valves all the time. Compressed air at even 25 psi will exert a pressure of almost 50 lbs on the valve--plenty to hold the valve in place while you compress the springs and remove the keepers. It is a good way to check the condition of the rings and valve seats as well. Another method is to stuff a small rope into the plug hole and then turn the piston up against the valve to hold it in place. Compressing the springs puts very little down pressure on the valve itself. Have done it many times.
The OP asked for the least expensive approach, and what I told him was about it.

 

[shadetree]

It is a procedure done on motorcycles with overhead valves all the time. Compressed air at even 25 psi will exert a pressure of almost 50 lbs on the valve--plenty to hold the valve in place while you compress the springs and remove the keepers. It is a good way to check the condition of the rings and valve seats as well. Another method is to stuff a small rope into the plug hole and then turn the piston up against the valve to hold it in place. Compressing the springs puts very little down pressure on the valve itself. Have done it many times.
The OP asked for the least expensive approach, and what I told him was about it.

wanna explain to me..how you can remove the keepers from the valve springs..let alone remove the valve springs ??..either i'm pretty dumb in this..even after 14 yrs of doing top end's on atv's..i just can't grasp how your going to compress the valve springs with air for one..and also remove the valve spring keepers even with air in side the cylinder holding the valves up..i undertand the concept of forcing the valves up..but..this doesn't put pressure on the valve springs enough to remove the keepers..let alone remove the springs..soo..i'm kinda lost of this concept...but..hey..if you say it can be done..go for it..i don't see it though .

 

[Helmut]

It is a procedure done on motorcycles with overhead valves all the time. Compressed air at even 25 psi will exert a pressure of almost 50 lbs on the valve--plenty to hold the valve in place while you compress the springs and remove the keepers. It is a good way to check the condition of the rings and valve seats as well. Another method is to stuff a small rope into the plug hole and then turn the piston up against the valve to hold it in place. Compressing the springs puts very little down pressure on the valve itself. Have done it many times.
The OP asked for the least expensive approach, and what I told him was about it.

wanna explain to me..how you can remove the keepers from the valve springs..let alone remove the valve springs ??..either i'm pretty dumb in this..even after 14 yrs of doing top end's on atv's..i just can't grasp how your going to compress the valve springs with air for one..and also remove the valve spring keepers even with air in side the cylinder holding the valves up..i undertand the concept of forcing the valves up..but..this doesn't put pressure on the valve springs enough to remove the keepers..let alone remove the springs..soo..i'm kinda lost of this concept...but..hey..if you say it can be done..go for it..i don't see it though .

I've never done this on an ATV head because they're so easy to take off, but I've done it plenty times on automobile heads. Shadetree, you can buy a valve spring compressor that works without removing the head. It has two hooks that catch in between the coils on the bottom of the springs. You can also just sit a socket on top of the valve spring retainers and hit it with a hammer to remove the cotters (keepers), but you have to use the valve spring compressor to put them back on. Below is a picture of a valve spring compressor that can be used with the head still on. There are a few different types, but this is the most common.

 

[shadetree]

It is a procedure done on motorcycles with overhead valves all the time. Compressed air at even 25 psi will exert a pressure of almost 50 lbs on the valve--plenty to hold the valve in place while you compress the springs and remove the keepers. It is a good way to check the condition of the rings and valve seats as well. Another method is to stuff a small rope into the plug hole and then turn the piston up against the valve to hold it in place. Compressing the springs puts very little down pressure on the valve itself. Have done it many times.
The OP asked for the least expensive approach, and what I told him was about it.

wanna explain to me..how you can remove the keepers from the valve springs..let alone remove the valve springs ??..either i'm pretty dumb in this..even after 14 yrs of doing top end's on atv's..i just can't grasp how your going to compress the valve springs with air for one..and also remove the valve spring keepers even with air in side the cylinder holding the valves up..i undertand the concept of forcing the valves up..but..this doesn't put pressure on the valve springs enough to remove the keepers..let alone remove the springs..soo..i'm kinda lost of this concept...but..hey..if you say it can be done..go for it..i don't see it though .

I've never done this on an ATV head because they're so easy to take off, but I've done it plenty times on automobile heads. Shadetree, you can buy a valve spring compressor that works without removing the head. It has two hooks that catch in between the coils on the bottom of the springs. You can also just sit a socket on top of the valve spring retainers and hit it with a hammer to remove the cotters (keepers), but you have to use the valve spring compressor to put them back on. Below is a picture of a valve spring compressor that can be used with the head still on. There are a few different types, but this is the most common.

yeah..i know the trick on the socket and hammer getting the keepers out..just didn't know how they could be put back on with out a valve spring compresser ?..let alone get a compresser to the other side of the head while it was on the motor !.lol..now..that little gaget..makes perfect sinse for taking the springs and keepers out..i like that thing !!..but...as i stated from the start..if he was gonna be that far into it..may as well just do the rings..sooo..while doing that..the valves coulda been done the old fashion way..i still like that tool helmut..where can i pick one of those up ?

 

[Helmut]

You can get them at almost any auto parts store.

 

[shadetree]

You can get them at almost any auto parts store.

cool..i'll have to pick me one up..see how it does on atv valves..lol..the valve spring compressor i use is always a pain to get around and over..set just right..i'm sure you know what i'm talking about !..lol..thanks for the pic and info...the pic man strikes again !..lmfao.

 

[Helmut]

the valve spring compressor i use is always a pain to get around and over..set just right..i'm sure you know what i'm talking about !

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. That's why I usually use a drill press to compress the springs, like I mentioned in another thread. I usually just take the head off anyway and the drill press technique works much easier for me.

Automobile heads are lot more trouble to take off, that valve spring compressor comes in real handy when replacing valve stem seals on an automobile and you don't want to pull the head off.

 

[Exaviator]

I totally agree that taking the head off is the easier way. I was just explaining how to do it the least expensive way. I have always been of the school to never reuse a head gasket, but perhaps it is OK to do so on ATV's. The method I described does negate the need to get a new one.
I initially tried a standard compressor like the one in Helmut's pic, but it was too large to fit onto the springs--there are smaller ones for these small engines though. What I used was a welding locking grip modified with a large washer welded to one side to fit over the valve end and the other side fits over the valve head . It can be set so that it is squeezed to lock at just the right distance to allow the keepers to be removed. A very handy and simple tool. Wish I had a pic. The drill press idea is a good one too--since I have a big one in my shop.
Shade--I never dreamed that you would not have seen and used one of those clamps. Seeing one will make it abundantly clear about the method I described.
Horshackle--hope we did not lose you here.

 

[Helmut]

Snap On or Mac (can't remember which one) makes a good tool to install the cotters on the valve springs. I don't have one, myself, but one of my buddys has one and I've used it before. I tried to find a picture of one like it, but I couldn't find one.

It works the same way as using a socket to remove the cotters, except with this tool, you can put a little dab of grease inside the tool and put the cotters inside the tool (the grease holds the cotters in place) and set it on top of the spring retainer and just hit it like you would a socket and it will push the spring down and install the cotters at the same time. You don't have to remove the head. The good thing about this tool is that it works when the valve springs are in tight places and you can't get the other type of puller to work. I have never seen this tool sold anywhere and this is the only one that I've seen like it. It's a Snap On or Mac, so I guess you would have to get it from a Snap On or Mac dealer.

 

[shadetree]

it's cool exa, nope..never have seen or used that tool helmut showed, i've always done it the old fashion way..seeing how most off my rebuilds required to do rings anyway..i always pulled the head off...and yes..i do use new gaskets..top end gasket sets..always !..old ones will not settle with me..lol. if i tear one down..and put it back together..i try to do it once..lol.

 

[Helmut]

I won't reuse a head gasket either. Some people will reuse them, though. There's been times when I haven't used a new head gasket when I was working on an ATV for someone else and they didn't want to buy one, but I don't recommend it and I would never put my own ATV back together without a new head gasket.

 

[Exaviator]

My .50 mil over rings arrived today and I could not wait to fit one in the bore to measure the end gap--it was a constant 8-9 thou and that made me very happy. Guess the old rings were just worn out. Got my new seals on and set the jug back on the piston. Got the head on and torqued up and then did the timing thing and slapped on the rocker cover. Those two bolts torqued up quite a bit but I did not force the issue. Since Hondabond was a whooping $25 bucks here, I opted for permatex ultra gray and tried to use it sparingly. I may regret that(LOL)
Then, I took down the oil feed line and promptly lost one of the copper washers onto the floor when it rolled out of sight. That was enough for me tonight so I will wait for tomorrows light to try and locate the washer.
Tomorrow will be fire up day.

 

[Helmut]

Since Hondabond was a whooping $25 bucks here, I opted for permatex ultra gray and tried to use it sparingly.

Yes, that is high. It's only about $6 at my local Honda dealer.

 

[shadetree]

My .50 mil over rings arrived today and I could not wait to fit one in the bore to measure the end gap--it was a constant 8-9 thou and that made me very happy. Guess the old rings were just worn out. Got my new seals on and set the jug back on the piston. Got the head on and torqued up and then did the timing thing and slapped on the rocker cover. Those two bolts torqued up quite a bit but I did not force the issue. Since Hondabond was a whooping $25 bucks here, I opted for permatex ultra gray and tried to use it sparingly. I may regret that(LOL)
Then, I took down the oil feed line and promptly lost one of the copper washers onto the floor when it rolled out of sight. That was enough for me tonight so I will wait for tomorrows light to try and locate the washer.
Tomorrow will be fire up day.

lol..yeah..you may regret that permatex !..lol..hope you get it going !!..good luck !..oh..those copper washers love to roll under the tires !.lmfao.

 

[shadetree]

Since Hondabond was a whooping $25 bucks here, I opted for permatex ultra gray and tried to use it sparingly.

Yes, that is high. It's only about $6 at my local Honda dealer.

i paided around 12 bucks for yamabond at my local dealer ( they sell honda's and yamaha's ) and yes helmut..i know this is a honda forums !..lmfaoooo.

 

[Exaviator]

It can be almost criminal the way they continually rip us off here in Canada. I always try to let them know that most things are way cheaper elsewhere---and then just lay it on the counter and walk away.
Guess I got off topic a bit. For a minute there, I thought I was in my own thread. LOL

 

[horshackk04]

thanks for the replys fellas, as for if it was a wet test the engine was at operating temp so whatever oil the cylender sees in this condition would be the case, if i can change just the valve seals with out removing the head i may give that a go, i understand the idea behind the compressed air as long as there is no blow by in the cyl and the valve seats are ok.