My oil change goes terribly wrong, long post

6664 Views 39 Replies 8 Participants Last post by retro, Apr 13, 2019

bcsman

Discussion Starter · Sep 15, 2018

Let's just say if we hadn't talked about words we shouldn't use here there would be a few tonight. Decided to change the oil on my 1998 Foreman 450ES today. Everything went well, I drained the oil and pulled the oil filter cover off. I wasn't nuts about the large o ring and went to a few places to see if I could find one. No luck. So I proceeded to put everything back together, plug back in the drain and placed the o ring and new filter and spring back. I was kinda worried there would be a leak from around the filter housing, but tightened everything down. With my mind on the possible leak I started the engine, not paying attention I had not put oil in yet!! Here the 4 letter words would be inserted..:angry: Probably ran 15-20 seconds or so, never shifted out of neutral, before I came to my senses. Shut down and added 2 quarts of ATV oil, restarted for a minute or more, shut down and added another .1 quart to top off.

Started again, engine sounded ok, shifted into reverse to back up, then shifted to 1st to test out. Went down the road a little and not shifting well, trying to upshift from 2 to 3 and showing 3 but never really shifting and showing 2. Got up to 5 but again not shifting well. It ended up dying on the way back with the dashes showing and not restarting. I was able to use the buttons to get back to neutral and started again. So now upshifting is iffy, downshifting seems fine. My real problem is when upshifting I get some shuttering when giving throttle, probably clutch, like it's trying to connect. It was doing this next symptom before the oil change, but when upshifting sometimes it takes off in the next gear but its like overdrive kicks in and takes off faster. Also before and after when shutting down there is something internal that keeps spinning then catches and stops. So think things weren't great with the clutch before but running for a short time with no oil made it worse.

So you can call me any name you want I have it coming!! But does it sound like I am going to need some clutch work sooner than later?? I will try to add more details if needed.

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shadetree

· #2 · Sep 15, 2018

the noise your hearing when the engine is shut off, then you hear a whirling noise , then a clunk ?..this is your one-way centrifugal clutch bearing. as for the rest ?..man..i really don't know what to tell you ?..other than shoot that thing, and buy a manual shift model..lol. it almost sounds like your clutch is not adjusted right too me ?.

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retro

· #3 · Sep 15, 2018

Yep, there are two clutch problems with it. But you probably didn't hurt anything by running the motor without oil for a bit, so forget about that. We all make mistakes.

As shadetree said, you'll need a new engine braking one-way sprag clutch assembly. That is what is causing your whirring noise... there are three parts to that: the inner hub, the sprag and the drum. All three will need to be replaced at the same time.

Your other clutch issue might be in the change clutch or it could be in the centrifugal clutch. Adjust the change clutch 1st and see if that helps. If it still acts the same you can go ahead and tear it down and fix them both.

Its gonna be costly to fix. Keep us updated if you can.

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bcsman

Discussion Starter · #4 · Sep 15, 2018

When you say adjust the change clutch loosen the 14 mm nut and adjust the screw?

Just seems as this has a wet clutch and wasn't "wet" with no oil it seems to be acting worse. Not sure this has anything to do with ES if it's an internal clutch problem but I could be wrong..

Not being able to do an oil change without messing up I probably won't be working on the clutch, who knows what I will end up with!!!!

I will see what happens tomorrow and post here, sorry @shadetree but can't shoot her yet my better half would end up shooting me as smart or dumb as my purchase was...

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shadetree

· #5 · Sep 15, 2018

bcsman said:
When you say adjust the change clutch loosen the 14 mm nut and adjust the screw?

Just seems as this has a wet clutch and wasn't "wet" with no oil it seems to be acting worse. Not sure this has anything to do with ES if it's an internal clutch problem but I could be wrong..

Not being able to do an oil change without messing up I probably won't be working on the clutch, who knows what I will end up with!!!!

I will see what happens tomorrow and post here, sorry @shadetree but can't shoot her yet my better half would end up shooting me as smart or dumb as my purchase was...

you did not run it long enough without oil to hurt the clutches. you could pull the drain plug, drain all the oil out of it, let it sit for a couple days, AND YOU WOULD NEVER GET ALL THE OIL OFF THE CLUTCHES !..LOL. try adjusting the centrifugal clutch first, see how that goes

.

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shadetree

· #6 · Sep 15, 2018

speaking of es models, had an es model I rebuilt awhile back at my buds place, stupid thing would not hit a lick with the change gears buttons ?, finally I told him..thats it !..its going to manual shift mode !..lol. that night, I converted it to manual shift, and did not look back !..lol.

retro

· #7 · Sep 15, 2018

bcsman said:
When you say adjust the change clutch loosen the 14 mm nut and adjust the screw?

Yes, see the attached image... back out the screw about two turns max, put some grease or oil on the screw threads then turn it in until resistance is barely felt. Double check that the screw is not binding in the case making you think it has stopped... Once you are sure, back it out 1/4 turn and hold it there while you tighten the locknut.

The adjustment screw might be found seized up in the cover. If so don't ruin the soft screw trying to loosen it. Spray it down with penetrating oil and smack it with a plastic hammer to break the corroded threads bond. Or hollar at us...

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rodp

· #8 · Sep 15, 2018

retro said:
bcsman said:

When you say adjust the change clutch loosen the 14 mm nut and adjust the screw?

Click to expand...

Yes, see the attached image... back out the screw about two turns max, put some grease or oil on the screw threads then turn it in until resistance is barely felt. Double check that the screw is not binding in the case making you think it has stopped... Once you are sure, back it out 1/4 turn and hold it there while you tighten the locknut.

The adjustment screw might be found seized up in the cover. If so don't ruin the soft screw trying to loosen it. Spray it down with penetrating oil and smack it with a plastic hammer to break the corroded threads bond. Or hollar at us...

As retro says, this is important. It took about two hours to free mine off gently winding back and forth with plenty of lube. Don't rush this bit, if it's seized then get yourself comfortable and stay as long as it takes to do it properly.

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bcsman

Discussion Starter · #9 · Sep 15, 2018 (Edited)

rodp said:
retro said:

bcsman said:

When you say adjust the change clutch loosen the 14 mm nut and adjust the screw?

Click to expand...

Yes, see the attached image... back out the screw about two turns max, put some grease or oil on the screw threads then turn it in until resistance is barely felt. Double check that the screw is not binding in the case making you think it has stopped... Once you are sure, back it out 1/4 turn and hold it there while you tighten the locknut.

The adjustment screw might be found seized up in the cover. If so don't ruin the soft screw trying to loosen it. Spray it down with penetrating oil and smack it with a plastic hammer to break the corroded threads bond. Or hollar at us...

Click to expand...

As retro says, this is important. It took about two hours to free mine off gently winding back and forth with plenty of lube. Don't rush this bit, if it's seized then get yourself comfortable and stay as long as it takes to do it properly.

OK you say back it out 2 turns max, is this a left hand thread? I can only turn the screw CCW maybe 1/4 turn and it meets resistance. I can probably turn it more CW to start with. As per the instructions you posted that's all I can do, I don't want to force it CCW any more do I?

Also best to do with the engine warm or cold?

bcsman

Discussion Starter · #10 · Sep 15, 2018 (Edited)

I have a spare broke engine that came with the quad. I am experimenting with that right now. If I just loosen the nut a little the screw only backs out CCW the quarter turn from where it was set, but if I loosen the nut more I can back it out CCW another turn or two. Is that what you are talking about? Leaving the nut very loose turn the screw back in until resistance is met? Then turn 1/4 CCW? This is backwards from the manual as you turn CCW until resistance then CW 1/4 turn. I'm kinda confused unless I am reading retros direction wrong. With the loose nut I can turn the screw 2 1/2 turn in and out. Not gonna mess with the quads engine until I got this straight.

retro

· #11 · Sep 15, 2018

Yeah, back the jam nut off a couple turns so you can work with the screw only. Note the direction that ya gotta turn that jam nut to back it off... that is the same direction that you'll be turning the screw to back it off.

So, once the jam nut is backed off (you can take it off if the screw is not buggered up on the end), back the screw out about two turns and put some lubricant on it. Use grease or oil either one on those threads. This is to lube the threads to free the screw for the adjustment AND to prevent the screw from seizing up in the future. Turn the screw in and out several times to distribute the lube on the threads.

What you are doing with that screw is you are turning it in until it contacts the lifter mechanism that releases the change clutch. Once contact is made you are at zero lash. Continuing to turn the screw in will begin to release the clutch. That is why you will feel a gradual resistance building into a strong one as you reach zero and attempt to continue beyond.

The 1/4 turn out from zero lash adjustment that you are performing guarantees that the lifter mechanism will be disengaged from the clutch. If you don't allow sufficient lash the clutch might slip and if you allow too much lash the clutch will not fully disengage during gear shifts.

To adjust the change clutch, turn the screw in until resistance is first felt and stop. Then turn the screw out 1/4 turn and hold it there. You can do this a few times to get a feel for it. Once you are satisfied with the adjustment screw position hold it still while you snug up the jam nut.

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bcsman

Discussion Starter · #12 · Sep 15, 2018

Very good description, thank you. My question is why does it say in the manual to turn CCW (out) until resistance then 1/4 turn CW (in)?? That's what has me confused, the opposite from your very excellent instructions.

shadetree

· #13 · Sep 15, 2018

loosen the lock nut, while holding the lock in place, turn the center screw counter clockwise until it starts to get tight, now go back 1/4 turn clockwise, while holding the screw in place, tighten down the lock nut, then give it a test run.

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retro

· #14 · Sep 16, 2018 (Edited)

bcsman said:
Very good description, thank you. My question is why does it say in the manual to turn CCW (out) until resistance then 1/4 turn CW (in)?? That's what has me confused, the opposite from your very excellent instructions.

I don't know... I never paid any attention to what the manual says, other than to read far enough to get the 1/4 turn spec. CW, CCW... Semantics doesn't matter.

I'm sure you've figured it out by now anyway..?

EDIT: Actually I never used the terms CW or CCW in my description. Semantics tend to confuse... so I avoid them whenever possible.

Note the direction that ya gotta turn that jam nut to back it off... that is the same direction that you'll be turning the screw to back it off.

bcsman

Discussion Starter · #15 · Sep 16, 2018 (Edited)

So here is what I will do tomorrow after reading these posts. I will loosen the lock nut, maybe even remove. Then turn adjust screw in and out until restricted applying oil on it to see if it is frozen. When satisfied with its movement I will put the lock nut back on loosely and back the screw out (CCW) until slight resistance. Then turn in (CW) 1/4 turn and tighten the lock nut while holding the screw.

I can say with experimenting on my spare engine that when the lock nut was just slightly loosened the screw only backed out (CCW) very little but when I loosened it more the screw backed out even more. The range of movement is maybe one full turn until the lock nut is very loose then 2 1/2 or more turns. So maybe I wasn't getting it to back out fully.

bcsman

Discussion Starter · #16 · Sep 16, 2018

OK after church went out and did as I posted in my previous. The adjustment screw went in and out very easily, probably close to 3 full turns. I did put some oil on it and moved in and out a few times with the nut removed. As I turned out (CCW) as per the manual I stopped when I first met resistance. I could turn it further but according to retro and shadetree instructions I stopped, put the nut on and while holding the screw tightened the nut. I then said a prayer and took it out for a test. I was much improved over my last run when it shifted poorly. A couple times going from 3 to 4 the dash clicked to 5. Every downshift went as it should. I'm not sure about upshifting as I let up on the throttle but still higher rpm's. Maybe I try to shift too quickly.

But things went much better, it did still wind down when I shut off, but maybe I can try to tweak how far I turned out (CCW) before locking down. Any comments?? And many thanks for all the advise....

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shadetree

· #17 · Sep 16, 2018

bcsman said:
OK after church went out and did as I posted in my previous. The adjustment screw went in and out very easily, probably close to 3 full turns. I did put some oil on it and moved in and out a few times with the nut removed. As I turned out (CCW) as per the manual I stopped when I first met resistance. I could turn it further but according to retro and shadetree instructions I stopped, put the nut on and while holding the screw tightened the nut. I then said a prayer and took it out for a test. I was much improved over my last run when it shifted poorly. A couple times going from 3 to 4 the dash clicked to 5. Every downshift went as it should. I'm not sure about upshifting as I let up on the throttle but still higher rpm's. Maybe I try to shift too quickly.

But things went much better, it did still wind down when I shut off, but maybe I can try to tweak how far I turned out (CCW) before locking down. Any comments?? And many thanks for all the advise....

yw. no adjustment will fix the whirling noise after you shut it off. thats the one-way centrifugal clutch bearing making that noise, only fix for that is to replace the bearing. as for your clutch adjustment ?, sounds like you made an improvement

.

bcsman

Discussion Starter · #18 · Sep 16, 2018

Yes much better, haven't had a chance to tweak it yet, had grandkids over, but when I turned out to find resistance I stopped when it even kinda felt tighter. I have a feeling I can turn out a little more then do the 1/4 turn in.

shadetree

· #19 · Sep 16, 2018

bcsman said:
Yes much better, haven't had a chance to tweak it yet, had grandkids over, but when I turned out to find resistance I stopped when it even kinda felt tighter. I have a feeling I can turn out a little more then do the 1/4 turn in.

if you flowed my sticky on how to adjust clutches ?, then that should make it right by all means. I use this method all the time, and i've yet to this day not get them adjusted right !. if this method fails for you ?, then you have other issues going on with your clutches. worn friction disk ?, worn centrifugal clutch weights ?.

bcsman

Discussion Starter · #20 · Sep 17, 2018

So here's the deal, after cutting some wood this morning I backed the quad out to do a tweak adjustment. I loosened the nut fully and worked the screw in and out again. Then on the final back out I stopped where I had previously adjusted and then wanted to see how much further I could back out. It was about another 1/4 or more turn to good resistance. So from the max back out I turned in 1/4 turn and tightened. Next went for a test ride which didn't get far before it stalled. I thought I had messed something up but then realized I had not turned the fuel switch on....lol So got back running and went for my ride and it up and downshifted thru the gears just fine 2 times. In the process I met a neighbor and shut off and the clutch didn't keep running. The last time when returning home it did run after so I think I will leave things alone for now. I might try @retros check for an ES for adjustment but at the very least very close to good.

Many thanks for all the help and guidance, I'm sure I have worn out my welcome for a few days!!!

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