[agdodge4x4]

On a TRX200SX. I adjust my clutch as per the manual. Loose the lock nut, turn the screw counterclockwise until you feel slight resistance, turn clockwise 1/4 turn from there. The thing is, when I do that, and you are rolling and about to shift gears, There is a spinning/rubbing/rolling noise heard from the clutch area when you put pressure on the shifter in the UP direction, right before it clicks in to the gear. To keep that noise from happening, I actually need to turn the screw 3/4 turn clockwise from when I feel resistance.

I cannot reproduce the noise with the cover off. What is this noise, is it normal, or is something in need of some R&R?


OK Guys, after all this work, which can be argued was unnecessary, It's back together. All the bangs and pops of the clutch are still there, as expected, but so is the clutch adjustment!

Things I learned:

An impact wrench on the transmission shaft WILL take off the staked nut, even if you are going the wrong way, it will strip the threads out of the nut, but maybe the shaft too. For me, it did not. I was lucky. So...CRANK SHAFT NUT IS REVERSE THREADED AND TRANSMISSION NUT IS NORMAL THREADED! If you remove the nut with an impact wrench and it takes more than a couple of bumps to dislodge it and spin it off, CHECK THE DIRECTION OF THE WRENCH AND NUT THREADS.

Second....The adjustment cam that is in the right side cover has a PEG...in the cover is a HOLE...those two go together. Whoever did mine did not align it and it was loose and sloppy, this resulted in the 'spinning' noise at shutdown. The cam was laying on the clutch drum and dragging during shutdown AND use. SO...check that first. Also, you CAN NOT COMPRESS the clutch springs without the cover on. If you want to check to see if your clutch plates are not frozen, simply loosen all of the nuts on the manual clutch springs until they are nearly removed. There is enough play to separate each and every disc/plate in that clutch for verification. May not be enough room to put a micrometer on the clutches to check service spec though. For me, I had already removed everything before realizing it, so I put in new clutch plates.

I also replaced the one-way clutch bearing. It is expensive, but it SEEMS to work now. Before it was hit or miss and when I got the centrifugal clutch off, I could occasionally make the one way clutch fail. Not often...but it was enough that when running it wouldn't engage sometimes. So that's fixed.

Also, she shifts a LOT better. It no longer bangs through the gears. She is also HARDER to shift, in that the pedal is a lot firmer and requires more force to change gears now that its all firmed up and spring loaded as its supposed to be.

The only issue I have now is it dying when you slam the throttle, but I have already noticed an improvement on that when I adjust the air screw, so that's probably all that is.

Also, It creeps forward at idle now, not much, not all the time, but a little. I accidentally turned the idle UP and have now adjusted it back down, and that seems to be solved too.

I also put in MOTORCYCLE oil. 10W-40. It is wet clutch compatible and I can already feel the clutches being 'stickier' than they were before. They are also new, and soaked in oil before hand, so that may break in really nice.

Anyway, when rolling down the road, you can shift the thing as per the manual and she goes into each gear really smoothly and nicely, better than before.

She also got a new used side cover. The old one had a crack and leaked oil. Hopefully this one won't. The original also looked like it had been repaired via weld in one spot. I torqued to about 7 foot pounds. Firm, but not over done.

Thanks everyone for your patience and undying support in this most stressful endeavour.

Next thing on this is the breather cover gaskets. Leaking a bit onto the exhaust and stinks. Also need to put my new STRAIGHT tie rods on. LOL.

 

[retro]

It could be the thrust bearing on the change clutch, number 27 on the parts fiche. Or it could be the thrust button torn up... or cam balls on the change clutch cams & lever assembly... or somewhere else... Its all under the right side cover, so maybe be a good idea to take those down for a looksee...?

 

[agdodge4x4]

OK. Thank you. I just wanted to get an idea of what to look for. I will disassemble when my new cover comes in. I had it apart last week for oil change and inspection. I do remember seeing the OUTSIDE of teh centrifugal clutch. It looks wierd. Like its kinda chewed up or pitted. Is it OK or does this mean something?

Here's a pic: https://goo.gl/RpVDfV

 

[retro]

The change clutch and lifter assemblies are covered in section 8 of the FSM:

I would first verify (before taking the side cover off) that the change clutch is adjusted per factory specs, then test it. You can test the change clutch by pulling up on the shifter to put it in gear without releasing the lever. While still holding the shifter lever up firmly, rev the motor a bit and if the machine attempts to creep/move/lurch forward when revving the motor, the change clutch and/or lifter assemblies are ready for your eyeballs. Look for worn/warped/burnt clutch discs, check the pressure plate springs, the bearings and bushings, lifter cam assemblies in the clutch pack and the side cover, lever/sub lever wear, etc.

 

[misterclean59]

You said turn "counter clockwise" until resistance etc. Are you sure of this? It may be clockwise etc.....that's the way it's been on my repairs. I've never worked on a 200 tho.

 

[retro]

Ya, some may be clockwise, some the other way... my 350D goes counterclockwise (left handed threads) until the lever contacts the button, then 1/4 turn back (I think I remember! LOL). I'm making an assumption (since I haven't read the 200SX FSM) that the 200SX may be similar to the 350D as they're both vintage mid 80s machines. Its in the manual... if I'd only read it...

 

[shadetree]

most ( not all that I know of ? ) adjust going counter clock-wise. I have never seen a Honda atv that adjust clock-wise ???.

 

[agdodge4x4]

The change clutch and lifter assemblies are covered in section 8 of the FSM:

I would first verify (before taking the side cover off) that the change clutch is adjusted per factory specs, then test it. You can test the change clutch by pulling up on the shifter to put it in gear without releasing the lever. While still holding the shifter lever up firmly, rev the motor a bit and if the machine attempts to creep/move/lurch forward when revving the motor, the change clutch and/or lifter assemblies are ready for your eyeballs. Look for worn/warped/burnt clutch discs, check the pressure plate springs, the bearings and bushings, lifter cam assemblies in the clutch pack and the side cover, lever/sub lever wear, etc.

To be clear, when I push the shifter peddle up, I actually CLICK it into the next gear, but simply do not release it, right?

 

[retro]

@agdodge4x4,

Correct

 

[shadetree]

The change clutch and lifter assemblies are covered in section 8 of the FSM:

I would first verify (before taking the side cover off) that the change clutch is adjusted per factory specs, then test it. You can test the change clutch by pulling up on the shifter to put it in gear without releasing the lever. While still holding the shifter lever up firmly, rev the motor a bit and if the machine attempts to creep/move/lurch forward when revving the motor, the change clutch and/or lifter assemblies are ready for your eyeballs. Look for worn/warped/burnt clutch discs, check the pressure plate springs, the bearings and bushings, lifter cam assemblies in the clutch pack and the side cover, lever/sub lever wear, etc.

To be clear, when I push the shifter peddle up, I actually CLICK it into the next gear, but simply do not release it, right?

correct, hold the lever, if it moves when doing this ?, then your clutch is not adjusted right. it should only move under power when you release the foot shift lever, not while holding it up.

 

[agdodge4x4]

correct, hold the lever, if it moves when doing this ?, then your clutch is not adjusted right. it should only move under power when you release the foot shift lever, not while holding it up.

With this test, as you described, the quad does not creep, it will plain take off with throttle. What does this mean?

Are we SURE this is how its supposed to operate, because no matter how I adjust the clutch adjustment (loose, tight, or exactly as described in the manual) the quad exhibits exactly the same behavior. That makes sense since all that screw does is adjust the play in teh peddle. For mine, it only seems to adjust the play when pushing the peddle DOWN. Pushing UP the play is exactly the same no matter how you set the screw.

I pushed the clutch peddle UP UNTIL IT CLICKED TO THE NEXT GEAR....and holding it, it will take off as normal with throttle. So...Now I can take the cover off and start taking the change clutch apart for a looksee?

 

[misterclean59]

Your clutch plates may be stuck. 1st adjust the clutch again per manual then drive around in about 3rd gear with the gear lever full up or full down. This will assure you that the plates are not compressed by the springs.Gas it hard and release.......they should break free doing this. Bumping against a tree or holding the brakes on full may work too. In extreme cases you may need to disassemble the clutch pack. Clean or replace at this point.

 

[misterclean59]

most ( not all that I know of ? ) adjust going counter clock-wise. I have never seen a Honda atv that adjust clock-wise ???.

I'm fairly sure the three 420's I owned adjust clockwise. Every dirt bike that I can remember that had this "old style" were clockwise as well.

 

[shadetree]

most ( not all that I know of ? ) adjust going counter clock-wise. I have never seen a Honda atv that adjust clock-wise ???.

I'm fairly sure the three 420's I owned adjust clockwise. Every dirt bike that I can remember that had this "old style" were clockwise as well.

i'll bet you, if you go look at the side case ( or front case ), where the adjustment bolt is ?, if you look on the case for the words increase and decrease, you will also notice there is an arrow pointing to the left and pointing to the right ?, sooooooooo, if you go counter clock-wise to start from scratch which will be decrease, then go clock-wise to increase, then this is what I mean. you go counter clock-wise to start from the beginning , when you go clock-wise 1/4 turn ?, this is factory settings when brand new from the factory. we say go counter clock-wise when installing new clutch plates ?, or, to start from scratch incase someone mis-adjusted the clutch ?. you always go counter clock-wise from lose, to adjusted. hope this makes sense ?. most times, owners will go clock-wise too much ?, and run the metal plate that is inside the cover off the adjusting bolts end inside. when this happens ?, it's time to take the cover off to get the metal plate back on the bolt.

 

[retro]

correct, hold the lever, if it moves when doing this ?, then your clutch is not adjusted right. it should only move under power when you release the foot shift lever, not while holding it up.

With this test, as you described, the quad does not creep, it will plain take off with throttle. What does this mean?

Are we SURE this is how its supposed to operate, because no matter how I adjust the clutch adjustment (loose, tight, or exactly as described in the manual) the quad exhibits exactly the same behavior. That makes sense since all that screw does is adjust the play in teh peddle. For mine, it only seems to adjust the play when pushing the peddle DOWN. Pushing UP the play is exactly the same no matter how you set the screw.

I pushed the clutch peddle UP UNTIL IT CLICKED TO THE NEXT GEAR....and holding it, it will take off as normal with throttle. So...Now I can take the cover off and start taking the change clutch apart for a looksee?

What you described here is an inoperable change clutch. Misterclean59 suggested that the clutch pack may be stuck, which is likely given your explanation of symptoms. Another possibility could be the change mechanism isn't working for some reason or possibly has a part missing or out of place. If you can get the clutch unstuck and it begins to work and respond to adjustment normally, you can probably run it...

If it were my machine though, I would just take the cover off at this point and disassemble the clutch and change mechanism for inspection and fix it. The cover comes off easy and quick (you've had it off already I think?) and since I never know the complete story unless/until i get my eyeballs on it... I tend to do things in a least-at-risk manner. Which to me means; I don't dare to use force to separate/cause friction discs to slip.... else universe may reward me by ripping the facings loose (chunking them) on the discs!

Thats how my luck goes though... it may not be yours... I figure if the clutch is stuck I had better unstick them carefully, which means get eyeballs on them and see if I can save them. What if it is stuck because of rust... who knows? If they are warped from being overheated then I gotta get eyeballs on them to replace them... If something is not right in the change mechanism then I gotta get eyeballs on it to fix it... understand the logic behind my work strategies...?

 

[misterclean59]

Thanks Shade. I think we are in agreement. The poster said counter clockwise until resistance then clockwise quarter turn. I dont think resistance can be felt cc because the screw isn't going to touch anything to back away from.

 

[retro]

... The poster said counter clockwise until resistance then clockwise quarter turn. I dont think resistance can be felt cc because the screw isn't going to touch anything to back away from.

Thats incorrect... if there is no resistance ever encountered while turning the screw counter-clockwise, then the change mechanism or clutch is at fault somewhere.

The way it works is like this:
Turning the adjustment screw counter-clockwise results in the change mechanism contacting the clutch hub thrust bearing/button/etc., and then begins to depress against the spring-loaded hub until the change clutch is completely released... given that the person continued to turn the screw counter-clockwise, rather than stop turning at the first felt resistance.

The 1/4 turn back (clockwise) setting advised in the FSM is to provide freeplay clearance between the change mechanism and the clutch hub... so that the clutch will not ever become partially released throughout the operating temperature ranges and wear rates (allows for expansion/contraction of parts and a bit extra clearance to account for expected wearing rates of parts to occur) of all those interacting parts.

When the shifter lever is moved either up or down to shift gears, that 1/4 turn clearance between the change mechanism and the clutch hub thrust surface is taken up then the change clutch is completely released... to momentarily interupt engine torque transfer through the transmission, so that the constant-mesh gears can be slid by the shifter drum cams to engage/disengage the dogs, minimizing wear and damage to the transmission. When the shifter lever is released the change clutch re-engages and engine torque is then restored to the transmission.

So, that 1/4 turn clearance recommendation is very important to get right... if there is a problem suspected with the change clutch, I recommend putting a pair of eyeballs on it...

Hope this helps...

 

[agdodge4x4]

I tried to unstick them as per the guidance here, granted, I did not try very hard. I did it once or twice, and even on a tree until the back end wanted to stand up a little and nothing gave. So...I quit. I'm going to take the cover off and actually look at it. I will say that I cannot reason out how a clutch pack can possibly stick together considering its spent its whole life in a case of oil, but that's just me.

I need some clarification:

Another possibility could be the change mechanism isn't working for some reason or possibly has a part missing or out of place.

What is this piece? What do I look for or how do I tell if something is missing?

My other symptoms (posted about on the forum) are lack of engine braking unless you goose it, which indicates a failing one way bearing, but that is unrelated to this issue right?

 

[retro]

I tried to unstick them as per the guidance here, granted, I did not try very hard. I did it once or twice, and even on a tree until the back end wanted to stand up a little and nothing gave. So...I quit. I'm going to take the cover off and actually look at it. I will say that I cannot reason out how a clutch pack can possibly stick together considering its spent its whole life in a case of oil, but that's just me.

I need some clarification:

Another possibility could be the change mechanism isn't working for some reason or possibly has a part missing or out of place.

What is this piece? What do I look for or how do I tell if something is missing?

My other symptoms (posted about on the forum) are lack of engine braking unless you goose it, which indicates a failing one way bearing, but that is unrelated to this issue right?

You can refer to the FSM for parts and assembly reference and the parts fiche is pretty useful for discovery of any possible missing parts. As you study it all you'll understand better how it works and why things must be installed and set up as the FSM recommends.

Your engine braking issue may be completely unrelated to this one... thats correct. But I can't predict such a condition with certainty... cause my eyeballs won't ever be on it.

Feel free to keep any questions coming.... we all like to help where we can and we enjoy your company!

 

[agdodge4x4]

Awesome! Thanks a ton for the help. Ill get it apart in a day or two and see what is what. I'm actually kinda terrified that I have a crank bearing that is bad, due to teh popping noise I get from rapid acceleration in the centrifugal clutch area. But, that noise doesnt get louder with RPM, in fact, it goes away as the clutch catches up and only is present again under light acceleration or maintaining speed. But, alas, I won't know until I get into it. Keep your fingers crossed for me that its not a crank bearing. Not that I can't fix that, just not something I want to get into really.

Ill let you all know what I find. I have the IPL and teh FSM so, I'll check it out.