Electric Shift (ES) Problem Work-Around - Honda ATV Forum
Repair & Maintenance Having problems? Doing a rebuild? All Repair/Maintenance Discussions here.

 7Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
subzerosoundman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: North Texas
Posts: 46
Liked: 12 times
Electric Shift (ES) Problem Work-Around

I have put quite a few miles on my 2000 Foreman with the work-around, and I have
not had any problems. Some have posted warnings that this work-around
could break the shift motor, or the shift gears, but it really is very similar
in action to the way the ES system works as designed by Honda,
which does occasionally break parts anyway.

BASIC FACTS:
The ES Shift Motor is a 12 volt motor controlled by the ECU (computer).
The Shift Motor shifts gears by turning the SAME SHAFT as the manual shift tool,
and that is the SAME SHAFT as the non-ES (manual shift) footpedal shifter.
The Shift Shaft (on both ES and S models) disengages the clutch and rotates
the shift drum, then a spring returns the shaft to center.
Main purpose of ECU is to send 12V+Ground (or vice-versa) to motor until it shifts
...ECU Verifies actual gear shift occurs via angle sensor then Stops Voltage
...ECU prevents shifting out of neutral when idle too high
...ECU prevents shifting into reverse unless reverse switch engaged
...ECU sends Gears 2,3,4 signal to combination meter (on older Foremans)
NONE of these ECU functions is CRITICAL to Proper Operation
and so controlling the shift motor can be done manually as long as you
are careful not to hold the shift buttons down more than 1 second.

WORK-AROUND:
If unable to fix ES, can wire up 2 SPDT relays to bypass ECU
Shift Motor leads go to middle of each relay, NC goes to Ground, NO goes to 12V
Shift Up activates one relay (to switch to 12V), Shift Down activates the other relay
WARNING - It is possible that holding the button down too long may burn out motor
WIRING:
Cut 3 wires on handlebar going to shift switches,
put 12V fused new wire on Vcc wire (blk/red),
add extentions from shift up (whi/blu) + down (whi/yel) to battery compartment
Add 2x Relays (12V 30A) to battery compartment:
Connect shift up/dn button extentions to relay coils (86 white)
Ground other side of relay coils (85 black)
Relay NC (87a big red) go to battery ground
Relay NO (87 big yellow) to 12V battery (fuse optional as relays will burn out if shorted)
Relay switch center pins (30 big Blue) go to shift motor
NOTE: Shift motor Orange to relay for up (Whi/Blu),
Shift motor Green to relay for down (Whi/Yel)

RISK ASSESSMENT:
I have calculated electric motor torque of the shift motor to assess risks:
Electric Motors: 750 Watts = 1 HP which typically produces 1 ft-lbs @ 6000 rpm
I estimate the shift motor is 0.25 HP = 180 Watts = 0.25 ft-lbs / 6000rpm.
It has about a 60:1 gear ratio up to the final gear,
which changes 6000 rpm to a little less than 2 revolutions per second
(shifting requires 1 revolution of final gear, which will take about 1/2 second)
and increases 0.25 ft-lbs to: Torque = 15 ft-lbs.
Pushing on an 9 inch footpedal with 20 pounds gives 15 ft-lbs torque
so a large man could easily press a footpedal with more than 20 pounds
and beat the power of the shift motor.
Therefore, if there is more frequent shift gear damage with ES models,
then the cause is probably because of user error such as downshifting
accidently (instead of upshifting), which is far more likely
to occur with shift buttons than with footpedals.
subzerosoundman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 03:32 PM
Super Moderator
Supporting Member
 
shadetree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: north little rock, ar.
Posts: 36,011
Liked: 4214 times
Garage
that's a lot of risk ^^^, I think i'll just take my chances, and stay with a manual shift ( semi-auto ).

'89 trx350D foreman 4x4...'85 vf700c magna, '03 trx450fm foreman 4x4 , 2015 Yamaha waverunner fx cruiser ho, '08 vt750c2 shadow spirit
shadetree is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 05:40 PM
Super Moderator
Supporting Member
 
retro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Ojibwe Gichigami
Posts: 5,438
Liked: 2870 times
Why not teach people how to fix them right?

Cobbling up the shifter and cutting into harness wires just creates more problems and unnecessary expenses for people... whom eventually come looking for cleanup help and guess what happens next? WE get stuck guiding them back to reality and helping them replace hacked up wiring and parts. Its really dumb!

Our goal here is to help people learn (how) to do for themselves. Destructive cobbling ain't ever good advice to give folks that might not know any better. And certainly aren't qualified to pull such a dumb suggestion off.

Do it right, do it better, or stay home... thats my 2 (common) cents.

Welcome to the forums!



Last edited by retro; 11-06-2017 at 05:43 PM.
retro is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-06-2017, 05:48 PM
Senior Member
 
mrbb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NE Pa
Posts: 7,867
Liked: 1956 times
well I won't bash on a person's fix that works for them
but I tend to agree, the ES bikes when the ES works they work fine, when they don't it tends to be a few simple deals, , there just annoying when they have issue's
so, when one is fixed right, they tend to last many many yrs problem free(I prefer foot shifts, less to go wrong)
but E shifts have been a bout a LONG time and its NOT due to them all being BAD
for many folks that have issue's I think many do NOT have the skill site to be hacking into wires and adding NONE oem parts
will just open a bigger can of worms for most

for those with good repair skill, this might be a mod they wish to do
but I wouldn;'t recommend it
I like my things to work as designed from honda on my atv?
but thats again ME!
I'd call the above food for thought, and not a big deal folks!
XplicitRacing6 likes this.
mrbb is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 05:17 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
subzerosoundman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: North Texas
Posts: 46
Liked: 12 times
mrbb is right,retro is wrong.
Fixing my 2000 Foreman the retro way will take 10-40 hours of labor
and $250-1000 of parts (shift motor, angle sensor, ECU, wiring harness, etc.).
All on a vehicle worth $2000-3000, with no guarantee of success.
And you should realize that a lot of people have junked their atv because
they are not willing to trudge down that long and winding path.

On the other hand, this is not a fix that a novice without basic wiring skills
should try. Even though backing out the fix requires patching only 3 wires
(assuming you use quick splice connectors on the shift motor wires).
So as mrbb said, if you have good repair skills, you might give it a try.
XplicitRacing6 likes this.
subzerosoundman is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 06:51 AM
Gold Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Goober's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,968
Liked: 1307 times
Actually what you explained was eye opening because my latest malfunction happened when I meant to upshift and hit downshift instead also about using the manual shift leveródonít cycle too hard or youíll risk breaking it.
It was easier for me to replace the ECU, shift motor angle sensor and battery on the 02 about 3 years ago. It only needed a battery and clutch adjust this time.
Glad your workaround worked for you and thanks for sharing. I have some experience chasing spark and thatís quite a bit more than the average owner could stand. If parts werenít available this might be a more attractive option
XplicitRacing6 likes this.

_________________
Click link for Honda service manuals! 👀 see, right here👇🏻 Click it 👇🏻
https://drive.google.com/drive/mobil...13&direction=a

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/oem-parts

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda
__________________
Goober is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 03:34 AM
Super Moderator
Supporting Member
 
retro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Ojibwe Gichigami
Posts: 5,438
Liked: 2870 times
First off I love to mod things to work better or differently than they were intended. Very few machines that I have owned and use are left stock. I like designing and building and prototyping ideas and have a lot of experience doing so.

I like this creative idea and this attempt to eliminate ES problems too!

What I disagree with the most, is the suggestion of hacking into existing harnesses to make splices. With experience you'll learn why that is the most terrible suggestion you can offer a person, and that it cannot be backed out of, once corrosion sets in or fires start. You can cut up your own harness if you wish, but it would be better to do revisions right. Do it professionally and share it!

Many people that visit forums for solutions to their ATV problems don't have much experience, or knowledge... Some have very few abilities or skills and are very eager to find a quick, easy & cheap fix that they don't have to work much for. Many of the youngers just want to buy something, as if spending $$$ could solve their every problem. If we tell them to hack and splice, many of them would do it without a second thought! So, I feel responsible for what I might instruct others to do.

Folks learn very quickly from well built examples and will try to maintain quality in their own work when/where they are shown it. Why not make a short harness with soldered bullet connectors and weatherproof sheaths matching the existing harness plugs? Simply unplug... and plug in your new harness revision, rather than hack & splice? You can buy everything you need for that job cheaply. No irreversible damage is done. No risk of corrosion, or shorted harness wiring catching fire or frying innocent components. Get me interested in your product.

I apologize if this reads like a critical rant. Hang around and have fun...
shadetree and machinecrook like this.


retro is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-10-2017, 05:52 PM
Gold Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
LedFTed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: high grove, ky
Posts: 2,201
Liked: 435 times
Even with the wiring diagram in front of me, id probably screw something up. i done wiring for bowling machines, elevators, hvac, and a few more things. i think i banged my head one too many times over the years so my concentration aint what it never was.. besides, others ride the atv, i cant trust them not to hold the shift button too long. besides, i dont trust me either. i'd like to try, i just cant afford it.
Goober and retro like this.

clymers manual,service manual..
"what a good giff, the good lord gee us,not to see ourselves,as others see us"
hard to talk to morons. even more so, when related..
"ya should get 3 people ta smile or laugh every day" all will feel better
"sometimes, when drinking 5 or 6 bud's, nipping JB, Jim Beam, cinnamon in between, i start thinking sideways,,i have too though, ta match the way i walk" ed
"those that dont study history, are doomed to repeat it"
"I HOPE i aint wrote nutting else stupid" "funniest comedy dont need curse words" "teach how to think, not what to" ed
"Genius can be measured,not stupid" Albert Einstein
"when you get to old to learn, then what good are you" ed
i havent done friends list,if i do, R the rest not friends?
2000 450es TRX
2 grass hog 4x4s
sum humor adds up

Last edited by LedFTed; 11-14-2017 at 06:02 PM. Reason: spelling
LedFTed is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 08:55 PM
Gold Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
LedFTed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: high grove, ky
Posts: 2,201
Liked: 435 times
shift motor voltage

i was thinking (here we go again), that the voltage going to the motor was less than 12volts. maybe an inline resistor is needed. what is the resistance of the motor, voltage, amps supposed to be, going to the motor? i havent seenit, in the books i got.

clymers manual,service manual..
"what a good giff, the good lord gee us,not to see ourselves,as others see us"
hard to talk to morons. even more so, when related..
"ya should get 3 people ta smile or laugh every day" all will feel better
"sometimes, when drinking 5 or 6 bud's, nipping JB, Jim Beam, cinnamon in between, i start thinking sideways,,i have too though, ta match the way i walk" ed
"those that dont study history, are doomed to repeat it"
"I HOPE i aint wrote nutting else stupid" "funniest comedy dont need curse words" "teach how to think, not what to" ed
"Genius can be measured,not stupid" Albert Einstein
"when you get to old to learn, then what good are you" ed
i havent done friends list,if i do, R the rest not friends?
2000 450es TRX
2 grass hog 4x4s
sum humor adds up

Last edited by LedFTed; 11-14-2017 at 06:01 PM.
LedFTed is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 06:42 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
subzerosoundman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: North Texas
Posts: 46
Liked: 12 times
I don't know the resistance or amps of the shift motor, but the voltage has to be 12 volts
because the service manual recommends testing it with 12 volts. Also reducing a high current
(estimate 15 amps) to less voltage is hard and would be silly. The ECU probably uses MOSFETs
to turn on/off the motor, which have little resistance.

I could test my other honda which has a normal working ES system, but I am not that worried.
And the voltage will jump up, then down 1/2 second later, so I would need my oscilloscope
to test it.
subzerosoundman is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Honda ATV Forum > Honda ATV Technical Discussions > Repair & Maintenance

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Honda ATV Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome