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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-27-2014, 09:31 AM
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Someone correct me if I am wrong here, but, I thought the stator made AC power and the rectifier changed it to DC. Why would there be any AC voltage at the battery? And batteries don't store AC power, capacitors do. And I have posted this in other places but here goes again:
To test a battery and the charging system on any 12V system with a multimeter or volt meter attach leads to the battery and check voltage it should be 12.7 v, if not charge the battery and start over. Activate starter circuit, Voltage should not drop below 11.7V if it does replace the battery. After motor is running the reading should climb to 13.7V. If it does not climb then check charging circuit. It may not climb all the way to 13.7 at idle. There is one other possibility on dropping too low on trying to start, I have seen a bad starter make the voltage drop too low, but that is rare.

BTW I am an electrician and have worked on motorcycles and atv's since before atv's were made, but I am listening if someone can tell me I am wrong.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-27-2014, 11:43 AM
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When the diodes in the rectifier start to break down, they leak AC into the DC side of the circuit. Diodes can also fail towards the ground and drain a battery slowly.

While I somewhat agree with your voltage numbers, I usually see around 14.5 VDC in most of my 12 volt vehicles when running for a healthy charging system. And a battery load tester, not a multimeter or voltmeter, is better to test for a healthy battery - not a simple voltage measurement.

Rick

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-27-2017, 04:13 PM
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When the diodes in the rectifier start to break down, they leak AC into the DC side of the circuit. Diodes can also fail towards the ground and drain a battery slowly.

While I somewhat agree with your voltage numbers, I usually see around 14.5 VDC in most of my 12 volt vehicles when running for a healthy charging system. And a battery load tester, not a multimeter or voltmeter, is better to test for a healthy battery - not a simple voltage measurement.

Rick
Hi Rick
I'm Ozzy and I been reading the forum because I just got a 2000 honda Recon 250 and I think a have some charging issues, I been looking for the manual but I can't found it free. LOL, I'm wondering if you still active on this forum and maybe give a hand because I'm very new on ATV world, hope you or somebody else can help me and thank you very much
Ozzy
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-27-2017, 08:03 PM
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When the diodes in the rectifier start to break down, they leak AC into the DC side of the circuit. Diodes can also fail towards the ground and drain a battery slowly.

While I somewhat agree with your voltage numbers, I usually see around 14.5 VDC in most of my 12 volt vehicles when running for a healthy charging system. And a battery load tester, not a multimeter or voltmeter, is better to test for a healthy battery - not a simple voltage measurement.

Rick
Hi Rick

I'm Ozzy and I been reading the forum because I just got a 2000 honda Recon 250 and I think a have some charging issues, I been looking for the manual but I can't found it free. LOL, I'm wondering if you still active on this forum and maybe give a hand because I'm very new on ATV world, hope you or somebody else can help me and thank you very much

Ozzy


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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 05:51 AM
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Yes, I'm still here and the electronic copies of the shop manual are around here somewhere.

Do you own a good multimeter in the range of 30 dollars or so? You will need it for doing any kind of electrical testing on your bike? The cheap meters struggle with measuring small amounts of alternating current.

Rick

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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 07:01 AM
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Rick, maybe you can shed some light on something that has been puzzling me regarding regulator/rectifiers. They only perform two functions. 1. Rectify AC from the alternator. 2. Regulate DC voltage. The engine needs to be running for the r/r to perform these functions. Why then, does Honda wire the r/r ahead of the ignition switch? There is power to the r/r at all times this way, even when the ignition switch is off. It seems to me that it could have been wired after the ignition switch. This would give power to the r/r only when the ignition switch is on, but that is OK because the r/r doesn't do anything unless the engine is running anyway. Do you have any thoughts on this? The only thing that I can come up with is that the current arrangement facilitates the diagnosis of an r/r that is leaking current to ground. If an r/r that is leaking current to ground is wired ahead of the ignition switch, it will cause the battery to drain over time when the switch is off. That would cause someone to investigate the cause of the drain and hopefully discover that the r/r is defective. If the r/r was leaking current and was wired after the ignition switch, it wouldn't cause battery drain when the ignition switch is off, because the disconnected ignition switch would prevent any drain. When the engine is running, the alternator would have to make up for the leakage in the defective r/r, so some of the alternator capacity would be devoted to that rather than going to the system. This is the only reason I can come up with, but it seems pretty lame.

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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-28-2017, 08:15 PM
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Hello KTB,

Your assessment about the reg/rec is as good as any I have ever heard. Never really thought about it much but it is an interesting question.

Rick

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2004 Yellow Honda 250ex - Grandson's Bike
1971 School Bus Yellow "Spaghetti" Harley-D Sprint 350
1972 Candy Yellow Honda CL100 K2
1972 Candy Jet Green Honda CB500
1973 Mighty Green Honda ST90 K0
1974 Mars Orange Honda CT90 K5
1975 Topaz Orange Honda ST90 K2
1976 Shiny Orange Honda CT90
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-29-2017, 07:05 AM
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Hello KTB,

Your assessment about the reg/rec is as good as any I have ever heard. Never really thought about it much but it is an interesting question.

Rick
It sure would be nice to have access to the Honda engineers so we could get answers to questions like that. They might have better things to do, though.

-Ken

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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-29-2017, 09:36 PM
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Rick, maybe you can shed some light on something that has been puzzling me regarding regulator/rectifiers. They only perform two functions. 1. Rectify AC from the alternator. 2. Regulate DC voltage. The engine needs to be running for the r/r to perform these functions. Why then, does Honda wire the r/r ahead of the ignition switch? There is power to the r/r at all times this way, even when the ignition switch is off. It seems to me that it could have been wired after the ignition switch. This would give power to the r/r only when the ignition switch is on, but that is OK because the r/r doesn't do anything unless the engine is running anyway. Do you have any thoughts on this? The only thing that I can come up with is that the current arrangement facilitates the diagnosis of an r/r that is leaking current to ground. If an r/r that is leaking current to ground is wired ahead of the ignition switch, it will cause the battery to drain over time when the switch is off. That would cause someone to investigate the cause of the drain and hopefully discover that the r/r is defective. If the r/r was leaking current and was wired after the ignition switch, it wouldn't cause battery drain when the ignition switch is off, because the disconnected ignition switch would prevent any drain. When the engine is running, the alternator would have to make up for the leakage in the defective r/r, so some of the alternator capacity would be devoted to that rather than going to the system. This is the only reason I can come up with, but it seems pretty lame.
Running AC voltage & current from the alternator thru an existing (DC) ignition switch would complicate things unnecessarily and add considerable manufacturing costs. The ignition switch would have to have an entirely separate high current capacity (duplex switch?) assembly (with shielding in many cases) to switch both AC and DC circuits.

The full-wave bridge rectifier diode set in the regulator already provides this high current capacity switching function inherently, at no additional cost (no added wiring or mechanized/moving parts) since current only flows one direction thru a diode.

A high capacity DC energized 3P3T relay could be added to provide switching for the three-phase alternator to prevent battery drain when a diode shorts... but its still an added cost that provides no benefit... except to mask/hide a rarely occurring problem. An expensive triple-throw relay would probably fail more frequently than the diodes do...

And if the manufacturers were concerned in the least about failure rates they'd simply build the Reg/Rectifier with higher quality, higher current handling diodes.


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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-31-2017, 05:10 AM
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Rick, maybe you can shed some light on something that has been puzzling me regarding regulator/rectifiers. They only perform two functions. 1. Rectify AC from the alternator. 2. Regulate DC voltage. The engine needs to be running for the r/r to perform these functions. Why then, does Honda wire the r/r ahead of the ignition switch? There is power to the r/r at all times this way, even when the ignition switch is off. It seems to me that it could have been wired after the ignition switch. This would give power to the r/r only when the ignition switch is on, but that is OK because the r/r doesn't do anything unless the engine is running anyway. Do you have any thoughts on this? The only thing that I can come up with is that the current arrangement facilitates the diagnosis of an r/r that is leaking current to ground. If an r/r that is leaking current to ground is wired ahead of the ignition switch, it will cause the battery to drain over time when the switch is off. That would cause someone to investigate the cause of the drain and hopefully discover that the r/r is defective. If the r/r was leaking current and was wired after the ignition switch, it wouldn't cause battery drain when the ignition switch is off, because the disconnected ignition switch would prevent any drain. When the engine is running, the alternator would have to make up for the leakage in the defective r/r, so some of the alternator capacity would be devoted to that rather than going to the system. This is the only reason I can come up with, but it seems pretty lame.
Running AC voltage & current from the alternator thru an existing (DC) ignition switch would complicate things unnecessarily and add considerable manufacturing costs. The ignition switch would have to have an entirely separate high current capacity (duplex switch?) assembly (with shielding in many cases) to switch both AC and DC circuits.

The full-wave bridge rectifier diode set in the regulator already provides this high current capacity switching function inherently, at no additional cost (no added wiring or mechanized/moving parts) since current only flows one direction thru a diode.

A high capacity DC energized 3P3T relay could be added to provide switching for the three-phase alternator to prevent battery drain when a diode shorts... but its still an added cost that provides no benefit... except to mask/hide a rarely occurring problem. An expensive triple-throw relay would probably fail more frequently than the diodes do...

And if the manufacturers were concerned in the least about failure rates they'd simply build the Reg/Rectifier with higher quality, higher current handling diodes.
I wasn't suggesting that the alternator AC current run through the ignition switch. That can remain wired exactly as it is now. My only change would be to run the DC supply (red) wire through the ignition switch. That would be sufficient to eliminate any key-off battery drain that would occur in the r/r. Maybe even that would be too much current for the ignition switch, though.

2015 TRX500 Foreman

Last edited by ktriebol; 08-31-2017 at 05:31 AM.
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