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post #21 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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Ya, monitoring the fan motor operation itself might be impractical since there is no tachometer built into those.

So if we can make it so the fan relay energizes by default (and turns the light on to warn ya that there's an error?) if the sensor wire gets unplugged, we probably solve one of the more important faults that Honda failed to account for. I think we can do that pretty easily right now... Do you want it to do anything else?

So far we have a very basic but far superior fan control unit design that is very inexpensive, very sensitive and fully adjustable for:
1) Operating oil temp range extremes. We control both the ceiling and the floor, fan kick-on/kick-off temp points, independently of each other using trimpots.
2) We control the overall width of the operating temp range. AND we can shift that width up/down. As the oil sensor ages and decays, we can follow that decay with a trimpot, extending the life of the system while retaining sensitivity. All Hondas can benefit from that feature, especially the really old ones.

Nuther question for ya on how to mount the fan motor relay(s)... should we use external relay(s) (Bosch type, 12v automotive?) to allow for easier replacement, or should we mount relay(s) inside the enclosure permanently?
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post #22 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retro View Post
Ya, monitoring the fan motor operation itself might be impractical since there is no tachometer built into those.

So if we can make it so the fan relay energizes by default (and turns the light on to warn ya that there's an error?) if the sensor wire gets unplugged, we probably solve one of the more important faults that Honda failed to account for. I think we can do that pretty easily right now... Do you want it to do anything else?

So far we have a very basic but far superior fan control unit design that is very inexpensive, very sensitive and fully adjustable for:
1) Operating oil temp range extremes. We control both the ceiling and the floor, fan kick-on/kick-off temp points, independently of each other using trimpots.
2) We control the overall width of the operating temp range. AND we can shift that width up/down. As the oil sensor ages and decays, we can follow that decay with a trimpot, extending the life of the system while retaining sensitivity. All Hondas can benefit from that feature, especially the really old ones.

Nuther question for ya on how to mount the fan motor relay(s)... should we use external relay(s) (Bosch type, 12v automotive?) to allow for easier replacement, or should we mount relay(s) inside the enclosure permanently?
How often do relays like that go bad? I'd still lean toward all in one enclosed unit for ease of mounting and connecting.

Also, is the way you are planning this one to bypass the entire existing fan control module? Or just to add to its existing function? I have no opinion on what is better cause I know so little about the existing circuit, just curious.

2004 TRX400FA (Rancher 400AT)
MotionPro twist throttle kit
12" handlebar mounted light bar
rear rack wheelchair carrier
Cycle Country 48" plow w/ KFI hybrid mount
Champion 3000 lb winch w/ synthetic rope
23" Titan 489's all around (saving clutch)

2011 Grizzly 450 EPS

Others in the family: '04 TRX250TE, '85 TRX250 Utility (X2), '05 TRX90, '06 TRX500FA, '95 TRX400FW,' 88 TRX125
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post #23 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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This will be an independent replacement for the existing fan control, so the original ECM circuit will be abandoned. We'll reuse the OEM oil temp sensor wire & plug is all.

Relays don't fail very often, so combining everything into one enclosure will probably be the cleanest and simplest. The enclosure will have a removable lid anyway, so replacing a relay should be easy if one ever failed. I'll use high-amperage (30/40A Bosch style) relays, they're common, cheap and reliable.

The front fender will have to be removed to install it. So far it looks like there might be 5 or 6 wires to connect up. I'll calibrate it before it ships... which reminds me, what oil temp do you want the fan to start? And stop? Do you use synthetic oil in your Rancher?


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post #24 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 05:44 PM
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My head, OMG, my head! It's gonna explode!!!! Man Retro, you're something else son! Your so flipping smart you make my head hurt!!!!! 🤣 I've always sucked at electrical stuff and this is amazing to me and I'm sure others on here. My mind doesn't work like yours I guess and I know it's mostly just understanding how it works and how to manipulate things like that, but still, just crazy. And ol WheelSquad hanging right in there like a hair in a grilled cheese with ya, pretty darned impressive!!!! Kudos my friend! I'm going to have to give ya a buzz so you can explain this gizmo on my new ride, I have a couple questions. Keep it up and Honda will be putting ya on the payroll! LMAO!!!!!
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post #25 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retro View Post
This will be an independent replacement for the existing fan control, so the original ECM circuit will be abandoned. We'll reuse the OEM oil temp sensor wire & plug is all.
Ok, I'll have to look at my wiring harness then, cause I'm pretty sure the oil temp sensor wire goes into the same harness as the 3 shift position switches on the 400AT. Which is towards the rear of the motor. Pretty sure you plan on connecting into that oil temp sensor after more towards the front? Not a problem, just good to plan out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by retro View Post
Relays don't fail very often, so combining everything into one enclosure will probably be the cleanest and simplest. The enclosure will have a removable lid anyway, so replacing a relay should be easy if one ever failed. I'll use high-amperage (30/40A Bosch style) relays, they're common, cheap and reliable.
👍

Quote:
Originally Posted by retro View Post
The front fender will have to be removed to install it. So far it looks like there might be 5 or 6 wires to connect up. I'll calibrate it before it ships... which reminds me, what oil temp do you want the fan to start? And stop? Do you use synthetic oil in your Rancher?
Ok with 5 or 6 wires I think we've surpassed what I'll recruit the old man for. I'll recruit my A team, preferable someone more comfortable with soldering wires.

I didn't write it down at the time, but last summer after fully cleaning out my oil cooler, on a warm (but not hot) day I warmed up the machine good using it, then let it idle with fan on and I think near base of the cylinder, stabilized about 210-215F with my laser. Then turned off the fan and it stabilized about 240F. So hopefully that measurement was representative of oil temp?? If so maybe switch on temp at 230F and then switch off once it gets back below 215F? This is my first go-round with this sort of thing, but seems like a good starting point? That's why we are building in adjustability, right? Lol
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2004 TRX400FA (Rancher 400AT)
MotionPro twist throttle kit
12" handlebar mounted light bar
rear rack wheelchair carrier
Cycle Country 48" plow w/ KFI hybrid mount
Champion 3000 lb winch w/ synthetic rope
23" Titan 489's all around (saving clutch)

2011 Grizzly 450 EPS

Others in the family: '04 TRX250TE, '85 TRX250 Utility (X2), '05 TRX90, '06 TRX500FA, '95 TRX400FW,' 88 TRX125
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post #26 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerStroke70 View Post
hanging right in there like a hair in a grilled cheese
LOL'd for real when I first read that. Never heard that line before. Ha.

Yeah sounds like Honda could have easily implemented some of this cause they already have a fan control module, just add a touch more functionality. If only retro weren't already "retired"....

2004 TRX400FA (Rancher 400AT)
MotionPro twist throttle kit
12" handlebar mounted light bar
rear rack wheelchair carrier
Cycle Country 48" plow w/ KFI hybrid mount
Champion 3000 lb winch w/ synthetic rope
23" Titan 489's all around (saving clutch)

2011 Grizzly 450 EPS

Others in the family: '04 TRX250TE, '85 TRX250 Utility (X2), '05 TRX90, '06 TRX500FA, '95 TRX400FW,' 88 TRX125
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post #27 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 10:44 PM
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That is diffidently a better mouse trap.

Couldn't you just wired the fan to run all the tie while the ignition is on?
Why not a switch instead to turn it in when you want it on, if you didn't like
it on all the time.
Just a thought.
The fan on my 450es has come on yet, I have only ridden it for a few minutes, but did let it idle 5 minutes and still no fan.
I am going to put it on a switch tomorrow.
NO it wont be automatic but I can handle the responsibility.
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post #28 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 08:59 AM
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Very interesting project. Sounds like you've about got it hashed out. My '88 350D needs an FCU, so I'll have to give this gizmo a try when you're done with it.
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post #29 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrC. View Post
That is diffidently a better mouse trap.

Couldn't you just wired the fan to run all the tie while the ignition is on?
Why not a switch instead to turn it in when you want it on, if you didn't like
it on all the time.
Just a thought.
The fan on my 450es has come on yet, I have only ridden it for a few minutes, but did let it idle 5 minutes and still no fan.
I am going to put it on a switch tomorrow.
NO it wont be automatic but I can handle the responsibility.
MrC.
Yes a few guys have made theirs to just run with key on, or a switch, which is what I currently have. The reason I went with a switch was because either my sensor went bad, and the way Honda designed it, once either goes bad not only does your fan lose the ability to run, but you also lose the idiot light telling you when it gets too hot. So I didn't bother replacing my temp sensor since you really have no indication for when it would ever go bad again. That's how this whole idea got started, wanting to have a working temp sensor, but only wanting to bother replacing it if I could have some indication to when it did go bad again. So I asked retro if that would be possible, and he says not only is that possible, but we can improve it in these other ways too since we're already going that far.

What would be icing on the cake for this project is me making the 6 hour one-way drive to retro and letting him install and test his gizmo on the machine itself....
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2004 TRX400FA (Rancher 400AT)
MotionPro twist throttle kit
12" handlebar mounted light bar
rear rack wheelchair carrier
Cycle Country 48" plow w/ KFI hybrid mount
Champion 3000 lb winch w/ synthetic rope
23" Titan 489's all around (saving clutch)

2011 Grizzly 450 EPS

Others in the family: '04 TRX250TE, '85 TRX250 Utility (X2), '05 TRX90, '06 TRX500FA, '95 TRX400FW,' 88 TRX125
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post #30 of 121 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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Well folks, this project may be taking a big turn this coming week, in a very surprising manner!

I was putting together a website parts order on mouser.com yesterday and decided to look into swapping the single channel LM741 Op-amp circuit out for a dual channel voltage comparator IC. And well, that dual channel comparator research led into research for programmable micro-controllers... which led to discovery of some pretty cool development code and tools on Github... which led to discovery of some pretty cool looking (functionally speaking) devices having that Github code supported, programmable uC onboard... which led me to place orders for two of the more featured and useful looking... of those devices!

It looks to me like Honda oil temp sensors might possibly work very well with those devices with minor modification. So this project will be on hold for a week or longer, until the 1st order arrives and I've spent some time on them with my thermocouple and soldering station.

I don't know anything about those devices yet (gotta study up), and I may have jumped in way over my head this time. So hang in there... either my mind has blown, or both yours and mine soon will be. :-)


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